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Poll: In Favor of $60 billion tariffs on China?
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In Favor of $60 billion tariffs on China?

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Old 03-21-2018, 05:24 AM   #1
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Default Trump Enact $60 billion tariffs on China

I know Republicans have mostly been for free trade and Dems have been mostly for protected trade. It is amazing to me home many "liberals" are totally against this.

This would have to be a dedicated effort and jobs will be lost at first and prices for stuff will be higher but if the tariff's are enforced and people stick to them it could help America in the long run.

That being said this President will never stick with them and will buckle when China hits back. I doubt they ever get enacted.
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:44 AM   #2
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That being said if China starts to dump U.S. bonds the dollar will plummet in value. Good time to buy some gold.
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:46 AM   #3
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Trump prepared to hit China with $60 billion in annual tariffs

The United States exported $130.4 billion in goods to China, but it imported nearly four times as much, running a trade deficit of $375.2 billion, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

Economists specializing in China said that it would be difficult for the Trump administration to target Chinese companies because products imported from China are made by multinational companies with supply chains that stretch around the world.

Chinese manufacturers might assemble these products or put on the finishing touches, but the country does not export as many products to the United States that are entirely made in China, said Nicholas R. Lardy, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics.

“So much of what we import from China is produced by multinational companies,” Lardy said. “Thirty percent are consumer electronics. I’m sure the president doesn’t want to raise the prices of those and send Apple’s stock into the toilet.”

It will be easier for China to hit back, Lardy said, as China can zero in on U.S. exports such as soybeans, which are entirely made in the United States. Soybeans are one of the top two goods the United States exports to China, along with aircraft and aircraft parts, according to government data.

really great article
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:52 AM   #4
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China cheats. Relentlessly. However, Trump is the last person on Earth I would put in charge of dealing with that. Trump is one of those idiots who actually believes the simple-minded rhetoric he spews to his faithful at campaign rallies. It's a whole lot more complex than anything Trump could comprehend. Let's put it this way: Does America follow the lead of a guy who has bankrupted everything he's ever touched? The first thing America has to do is lower its debt in order to give us more leverage. Of course, giving billionaires tax cuts isn't going to get that done.
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:53 AM   #5
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The last thing we want to do is get into a trade war with a country we just finished sending our manaufacturing base to.
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:59 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guess Who View Post
I know Republicans have mostly been for free trade and Dems have been mostly for protected trade. It is amazing to me home many "liberals" are totally against this.

This would have to be a dedicated effort and jobs will be lost at first and prices for stuff will be higher but if the tariff's are enforced and people stick to them it could help America in the long run.

That being said this President will never stick with them and will buckle when China hits back. I doubt they ever get enacted.
Considering alot/all of trump products are made in China, it’ll never get enacted.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:15 AM   #7
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Remember in the late 80's when wal mart came into play and their motto was, "buy American" whenever possible.

It would be cool if they left the back corner of the store for strictly made in America items. I bet a lot of that would sell even if a little more expensive.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:33 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guess Who View Post
I know Republicans have mostly been for free trade and Dems have been mostly for protected trade. It is amazing to me home many "liberals" are totally against this.

This would have to be a dedicated effort and jobs will be lost at first and prices for stuff will be higher but if the tariff's are enforced and people stick to them it could help America in the long run.

That being said this President will never stick with them and will buckle when China hits back. I doubt they ever get enacted.
Trade tariffs don't work unless you live in an economy where people make pennies an hour. The simple fact is, we can't produce things as cheap as China can in the manufacturing sector, and that's not going to change no matter how many tariffs Rump imposes.

Look a little closer. You'll find that Rethugs are only free trade crusaders when it benefits the corporate elites that fund them. Dems are protectionists when it involves jobs, unions, the right to negotiate something better for the working class. The GOP shills for this meritocracy don't give a rat's ass about protecting American workers. They're interested in acting tough and making it appear they're doing something to "make America great again", when their only interest is corporate profits.

The same people who claim they want to protect US companies in the Solar industry, for example, ignored the fact that the industry didn't want those tariffs, said they'd cost jobs, and the fact that the manufacturing sector is a tiny piece of the US market anyway. On top of this, hurting solar is actually part of their objective to begin with, so it's all a pack of lies.

None of that matters in this fact free world we're living in now.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:40 AM   #9
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The only reason I'd support it is it's China.

Hampering trade for pure protectionism's sake does far more harm than good, in aggregate.

That said, there is a place for leveling the playing field with or locking out unfair competitors. And I believe that to be any nation without real representational government.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:50 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guess Who View Post
Remember in the late 80's when wal mart came into play and their motto was, "buy American" whenever possible.

It would be cool if they left the back corner of the store for strictly made in America items. I bet a lot of that would sell even if a little more expensive.
I would pay more for american made goods as we do for some organic foods.

But like the car companies (Ford / GM) are considered American but produce heavily in Canada and Mexico. I'd want clear confirmation that the goods really were American made and not just basic high level assembly done in a warehouse.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:51 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by BroncoBeavis View Post
The only reason I'd support it is it's China.

Hampering trade for pure protectionism's sake does far more harm than good, in aggregate.

That said, there is a place for leveling the playing field with or locking out unfair competitors. And I believe that to be any nation without real representational government.
China has us by the gym shorts on either end. They are our manufacturing base as well as a significance supplier of capital for our debt borrowing.

If they drop both ends on us we are hosed and they'd be fine.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:54 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmsanger View Post
China has us by the gym shorts on either end. They are our manufacturing base as well as a significance supplier of capital for our debt borrowing.

If they drop both ends on us we are hosed and they'd be fine.
No, because they can't replace the U.S. as a consumer base for their manufactured goods.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:57 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27 View Post
Trade tariffs don't work unless you live in an economy where people make pennies an hour. The simple fact is, we can't produce things as cheap as China can in the manufacturing sector, and that's not going to change no matter how many tariffs Rump imposes.

Look a little closer. You'll find that Rethugs are only free trade crusaders when it benefits the corporate elites that fund them. Dems are protectionists when it involves jobs, unions, the right to negotiate something better for the working class. The GOP shills for this meritocracy don't give a rat's ass about protecting American workers. They're interested in acting tough and making it appear they're doing something to "make America great again", when their only interest is corporate profits.

The same people who claim they want to protect US companies in the Solar industry, for example, ignored the fact that the industry didn't want those tariffs, said they'd cost jobs, and the fact that the manufacturing sector is a tiny piece of the US market anyway. On top of this, hurting solar is actually part of their objective to begin with, so it's all a pack of lies.

None of that matters in this fact free world we're living in now.
Winner (bold part.)

It's too late to put the genie back in the bottle.

The time to decide the issue was during the 1990s and the 2000s, and we made mostly bad decisions then.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:57 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmsanger View Post
China has us by the gym shorts on either end. They are our manufacturing base as well as a significance supplier of capital for our debt borrowing.

If they drop both ends on us we are hosed and they'd be fine.
Nah. The last thing they can do mid-debt bubble is tank their biggest market.

Any damage they do will come back to them, and then some. And managing a cataclysmic collapse without having a major reserve currency wouldn't be much fun.

But on the flip, we can't really afford to harm them all that much either. We made this deal with the devil decades ago. Now we have to mostly ride it out. But a protectionist jab every now and again might make sense. Again, only because these guys are just as much economic predators as guys just trying to make a living.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:13 AM   #15
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You can't have both trickle-down economic policies (with regard to taxation and regulation of business) and protectionist trade policies. These are incompatible.

The reason for America's demise as a manufacturing economy is that we bought the "we can't pay American workers decent wages and still be profitable" mythology perpetuated by corporate America via its purchased political influence.

The smart decision would have been to say "we will continue to take care of our workers, accept a ceiling on profits (a ceiling on greed, really) and THEN talk about tariffs.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:26 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27 View Post
Trade tariffs don't work unless you live in an economy where people make pennies an hour. The simple fact is, we can't produce things as cheap as China can in the manufacturing sector, and that's not going to change no matter how many tariffs Rump imposes.

Look a little closer. You'll find that Rethugs are only free trade crusaders when it benefits the corporate elites that fund them. Dems are protectionists when it involves jobs, unions, the right to negotiate something better for the working class. The GOP shills for this meritocracy don't give a rat's ass about protecting American workers. They're interested in acting tough and making it appear they're doing something to "make America great again", when their only interest is corporate profits.

The same people who claim they want to protect US companies in the Solar industry, for example, ignored the fact that the industry didn't want those tariffs, said they'd cost jobs, and the fact that the manufacturing sector is a tiny piece of the US market anyway. On top of this, hurting solar is actually part of their objective to begin with, so it's all a pack of lies.

None of that matters in this fact free world we're living in now.
I pretty much agree with this. The tariffs would be painful but if targeted properly some manufacturing jobs could come back. I would not trust this Administration to do anything correctly. So depressing....
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:01 PM   #17
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I have to disagree with Trump on this one. I think tariff's are dangerous. The Smoot Holly tariffs may have been what led to the first depression.

Hopefully this is just more of his negotiating style and in the end he makes a deal with China. Otherwise it could seriously damage our economy.
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:38 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmsanger View Post
China has us by the gym shorts on either end. They are our manufacturing base as well as a significance supplier of capital for our debt borrowing.

If they drop both ends on us we are hosed and they'd be fine.
The biggest holder of American Debt is US institutions and individuals (over 75%). Yes, China is the largest international holder but we need to be careful when think China has to much control over our economy.
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:43 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohirrim View Post
China cheats. Relentlessly. However, Trump is the last person on Earth I would put in charge of dealing with that. Trump is one of those idiots who actually believes the simple-minded rhetoric he spews to his faithful at campaign rallies. It's a whole lot more complex than anything Trump could comprehend. Let's put it this way: Does America follow the lead of a guy who has bankrupted everything he's ever touched? The first thing America has to do is lower its debt in order to give us more leverage. Of course, giving billionaires tax cuts isn't going to get that done.
Because you're so much more complex right? He's a self made billionaire traveling the world and rubbing elbows with the worlds financial elite.

And then we have YOU... scraping by month to month sitting in your walmart boxers typing to yahoos on the internet with cheese sauce stains on your wife beater tank top trying to figure out a way to move across the border.

What a self deluded sanctimonious nobody YOU are.

What have YOU ever created?
How many people have YOU employed?
What have YOU ever done?
What exactly are YOU in charge of?

This is one of the problems these days. Too many people think they know everything. I get that his personality triggers you kiddo. But let's get real here. You're probably not even qualified to run the local fast food joint down the road... but you sure as g-***n think you're qualified to rule the world.

Waiting for your world renowned resume. You're elite family background. You're earth shaking accomplishments and qualifications.
Post it up kiddo.


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Old 03-21-2018, 12:54 PM   #20
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American corporations come out against Donald Trump’s proposed tariffs
Support for the White House’s protectionist policies remains weak

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Old 03-21-2018, 12:55 PM   #21
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That being said if China starts to dump U.S. bonds the dollar will plummet in value. Good time to buy some gold.
It's rarely a bad idea to stack some silver and gold coinage in your safe. I do a little bit it every month. Just do it for the right reason. It's not meant for a quick return.
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Old 03-22-2018, 12:55 AM   #22
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It's rarely a bad idea to stack some silver and gold coinage in your safe. I do a little bit it every month. Just do it for the right reason. It's not meant for a quick return.
I have a bunch of gold

EDIT: Gold is higher than I thought at $1,300. I bought most of mine around $1,412 or so, I have bought a lot of it at different prices. I have never really sat down and figured how much money I have invested in it as to what it is worth. Gold is something where you just buy it and sit on it and not worry about what it is worth on a day to day basis.When the economy goes so south it will shoot up to $1900.
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Old 03-22-2018, 03:10 AM   #23
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manufacturing is never coming back. just like coal
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Old 03-22-2018, 03:25 AM   #24
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manufacturing is never coming back. just like coal
Mass Labor intense manufacturing is gone, but there is good chance if we fix our infrastructure and ensure there is good low cost clean power supply the next generation of automated manufacturing can be a boom here. The problem that means little human employment that is highly technical in nature. Which means invest in post secondary school/training for those labor trades.
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Old 03-22-2018, 03:56 AM   #25
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I'm hopeful that manufacturing can return... but in a different way. Not so much the large corporate assembly lines with a time clocks and shift work... but rather what some now term as micromanufacturing.
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